I like women in general, Muslim women in particular. I have four daughters. I am a registered nurse and the entirety of my career has unfolded in the company of women. I was raised primarily by my mother. Most of the people who express interest in the work of Dust and Tribe are, interestingly enough, women.
For all the joy and inspiration that the company of Muslim women has brought me, it hasn’t been all roses. And over the years I’ve met a number of men whose experiences with Muslim women validate what I will now offer by way of warning to the uninitiated.
Everything that follows applies to women who self-identify as Muslim. An insistence on maintaining the Islamic label suggests some level of attachment. This attachment to Islam could be religious or cultural. It could be nominal or substantive. The attachment might be out of fear, love, or even confusion. The point is that she calls herself a Muslim, you’ve entered one another’s orbit, and we will presume some level of mutual attraction.
Non-Muslim Men
You’re a secret.
I can virtually guarantee that if you are a non-Muslim man romantically involved with a woman who self-identifies as Muslim, nobody knows about you. The only exception I’ve ever seen is a woman who is confused and demoralized by systematic cultural and parental abuse to the point of radical secularization. Despite a familial legacy of rampant hypocrisy and a stultifying upbringing, she still sees beauty in Islam, perhaps as one sees beauty in a piece of music, art, or literature. It is an exotifying artifact that lends her richness and texture. She will wear your delight with proud wonder, “I never imagined someone like you would want someone like me.”
Whether a secret fling or a public romance, you are the Muslim woman’s savior. Transfixed by her alien bearing, you will deliver her from the oppression of her culture and upbringing. You are not Muslim. You have no expectations of her. You don’t know the rules so you can’t break them.
The non-Muslim man is an exhilarating opportunity for the Muslim woman to feel things she’s only wondered about, but in the end you are a guilty pleasure. You are forbidden to her. Should she choose to ignore that, she is only postponing heartache and that dark awareness is already poisoning the air between you. You feel her unease and respond with the redemptive comfort that makes you so appealing to her.
You may satisfy her physically, emotionally, and intellectually, but you will leave her spiritually famished. If she is keeping you a secret, her anxiety will overtake her fairly quickly. She will ask you to convert.
Lots of men do so with varying results. Give it some thought. My dad did and although the marriage didn’t last, he came to love his newfound Islamic faith.
If she is secularized and public about her relationship with you, she may find other ways to satisfy her spiritual hunger. If so, there may be some longevity in the relationship. But as time passes and the esoteric dimension ascends over the physical, she may grow restless with you. That may be confusing, considering the good times you’ve had.
There may be a loss of intimacy as the most precious part of herself is reserved for time spent with members of her faith community.
Or she might become a Hand-of-Fatima pendant-wearing vegan yogi who bows her salams as a sign-off on her motivational IG vids.
It really could go either way.
Muslim Men
A lot of Muslim women have it bad at home. Many have had to endure frustrating double-standards, impossible and conflicting domestic and academic pressures, and a general obsession with their “purity.”
Dust and Tribe runs several coed outings and we see this firsthand all the time. Fathers will not let their college-aged daughters participate in wilderness outings where Muslim men are present. These same fathers have no problem sending their daughters into a secular coed collegiate environment.
Idiots.
I know another man who found out his fourteen year-old Muslim daughter was exchanging text messages with a Muslim male peer in her Sunday school class. He was sure that it would be impossible for her to marry into a “good family” after such debauchery.
Dumbass.
These are the fathers raising some of the women you will encounter. Prepare for some radical trust, security, and identity issues.
The first thing you do, well before you meet the Muslim woman of your dreams, is save money. Get up a nice pile. Nothing says “serious” like a substantial dowry. A couple of years of college tuition maybe. Perhaps a year of rent. A woman is an investment.
If you’re too young or just generally down and out, respect your limits. Every woman is entitled to material support, though some are comfortable with less. Others may have their own resources and they are not really concerned about your ability to provide for them, but these are the exceptions and not the rule. Don’t be an entitled jerk.
Meet her father. Do that immediately. You’ll earn his respect and learn a lot about the family dynamics, dynamics that you are almost certain to inherit. Consider premarital counseling to address this in advance.
And don’t certify your marriage in civil court. Muslim women are to be cared for while married, though many have learned that civil courts will ensure that they continue to be financially supported for long after the marriage has ended. That’s what the dowry is for and this is why you need to take it seriously.
Civil marriages are ridiculous. I am aware of Muslim women who divorced their legal husbands, successfully sued for alimony, and married another Muslim man “off the books.” In this way, she secures support from two men. Yessir, it happens.
If she insists on a legal marriage, insist on a prenuptial agreement and advise her that you will also establish a personal trust before you get married. Monies deposited into this trust will not be accessible to her in the event of a divorce (I’m not a lawyer- do your homework). Her insistence on a legal marriage is almost certainly related to her need for security, and that’s fine. You have the same need. If she or her family are offended by your level-headedness in protecting what you have worked for, walk away.
It’s reasonable for her to worry, of course. Nobody wants to be taken advantage of, least of all a woman who may have grown up in an oppressive and irrational home. Be proactive in managing this. Get out into the community. Be visible. Find organizations to be involved with. Volunteer with Islamic charities. Be a youth mentor. Show up to Friday prayers on the regular. You should be a person that is recognizable in her circles.
Your wedding should be very public. This is how we responsibly and communally ensure accountability. You’ve met her father and the rest of her family. You’ve had important conversations. Men and women in the community are prepared to vouch for you and take you to task if you act up. This is how we build strong societies. This is how, in addition to a generous dowry and connecting with her family, you further address her need for security.
We don’t turn something this sacred and foundational over to the corrupt and dehumanizing machinations of divorce court. The system is designed to extract wealth and virtue from men and women by pitting them against one another. In high-conflict cases, the community may even fall into factions, his side and her side. This is a profound evil and in direct opposition to the Qur’anic mandate that we should “separate with kindness.” (Q2:229)
Some middle-aged Muslim women may want to shame you into believing that men who marry for youth or beauty are degenerates. So too are men who take more than one wife, unless perhaps the woman is a poor and balding invalid with innumerable children, all of whom have special needs. Then maybe . . .
Seeking piety above all else is optimal, but a man that has taken the time to secure the necessary resources and has worked to build and maintain a grounded reputation in his community should feel good about setting whatever permissible priority in mate selection that he so chooses.
Just keep it above board. A woman’s primal need for security should be respected and communication goes a long way. She doesn’t need to know everything, but be transparent about that as well. Let her know that some things are better sorted out with the men in your life, or your biological family, or your business partners. If you are consistent in protecting what is between you and her, she may see the value in your maintaining a similar trust with others.
Then again, she may not. There’s a lot of garbage out there about how we should all marry our best friend. She may derive from this that you are each to be one another’s go-to for all things. Anything less is offensive and diminishes the relationship. That’s absurd. It’s important that we diversify our emotional investments. We’re playing the long game and it makes no sense to put all of our eggs into one basket.
You might get married a few times before all the kinks are worked out. That’s fine. We have a lot of work to do around pulling the sting out of divorce. A divorce is proof that both partners were serious, that both took their sacred responsibilities to heart. That’s why they insisted on marriage in the first place.
Be sure and add widows and divorcees to your list of prospects. You’ll have the decided advantage of knowing how they manage the end of a relationship.
There is no blessing on earth greater than a solid Muslim woman. It’s worth the time and effort to find one of your very own.
Tired of my mansplaining? Set me straight and tell me off in the comments below.
I found this interesting..I wasn’t sure at first if the author was male or female.
However, I do believe that there is a crisis in the Muslim community regarding marriage, divorce and relationships. We need to call it out and teach and empower our youth about healthy relationships and communication by modeling.
I think having a legal marriage is necessary because it’s not just about spousal support, it’s about rights and it’s about accountability. Plenty of women are more educated and higher earners than their male counterparts. I know many women who pay spousal support to their former partner. I believe all marriages require a prenup.
There needs to be a healthy algorithm for getting to know potential marriage partners in a halal way. Expectations need to be communicated upfront and it’s critical to get to know someone carefully over time.
We agree that there is a crisis. We agree on the importance of modeling. We agree on the value of accountability and the preservation of rights.
We disagree regarding your belief that the civil courts are the place to enforce those rights. The civil court has little or no respect for Islamic law, clearly evidenced by your friends being forced to pay spousal support to their former husbands.
And we certainly do our part getting men and women together outside, the least awkward and most efficient place to learn about others, we believe.
Thank you so much for your comment. Good to know that there are people out there willing to share their point of view. Agreement is nice, but around here we much prefer dialogue!
Firstly, we’re all in agreement that there is a major criss going on, and unfortunately it’s extended into the unmarried young of our community, such that (I believe) the youth/next generation are not adequately prepared for the ups and downs of marriage, in addition to what was described above, and unfortunately it appears to be getting even worse with subsequent generations.
Second, I agree with Ahmed. The civil courts here in the US and the West in general are absolutely NOT the right place to enforce Islamic law. This is a legal system created BY lawyers FOR lawyers, and profits only those who are engaged in maintaining it. As someone who went through a high conflict divorce, I attest to this: the only winners in all this were the lawyers. Neither me nor my ex-wife have benefited from going through the civil court, and its left us both in financial ruins, on top of reinforcing the high conflict and adversary emotions. This is directly in contrast with our tradition/teachings of parting with excellence.
What is needed is a two-pronged approach:
1.) We need a way to enforce Islamic law and teachings in the legal system here, and whether that’s through standardized prenups recognized by the courts here or by way of getting special Islamic law courts is beyond me.
2.) More importantly, as what’s taught in medicine, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure: we need to put more effort into adequately preparing the youth/next generation for the realities of marriage and strengthen their character/deen in order to prevent disasters like what we’re seeing today. I don’t understand how our kids are going to live healthy productive lives and carry the banner of Islam forward when they can’t even keep a family together. This really scares me and I strongly believe we need to invest more into this arena.
Love to hear your thoughts on this.
It is bull shit. For about 3-4 months I was talking with a Muslim woman from Indonesia and then she lays it on me that I have to convert and all this if we want to marry. She wanted us to go to Bali for one week to experience each other than to West Java to see her parents so I can makd it known that I want her… but its just too much. Converting possible loss of my Amedican citizenship because she wants me to stay in Indonesia with her… no she doesn’t understand my feelings at all and doesn’t care. And when I tried to explian she instantly shut down. I hate women like that who are so trapped by some sort of make belief bull shit. Stuck in a stupid mindset. I fucking hate that I waste my time on someone who wouldn’t even fight for our love… fuck Indonesia and the politcians and whatever religious sects are brainwashing these women. I hope all religion some day falls by the way side. Its all corrupt mindless garbage and when you die you return to the null and void, simply nothing.
Hello CJ,
This post was written in the hopes of getting ahead of any heartbreak, and we’re sorry to hear about your difficulties.
Pain is the wellspring of wisdom. We certainly hope that you are able to grow from what sounds like a very confusing experience.
Take care of yourself.
I am so sorry for what you have gone through, she should of listened to you, relationship should be comrpomised. Many marriages and relationships fall due to lack of communication and miserstanding one another.
Huda
From the aggression in his comments “Indonesia and the politcians and whatever religious sects are brainwashing these women. I hope all religion some day falls by the way side. Its all corrupt mindless garbage and when you die you return to the null and void, simply nothing.”…it sounds like it’s a blessing for her that she didn’t marry him. It sounds like she would have had to sacrifice the person she really is to make him happy and that he has no respect or desire to try to respect her true values. I highly doubt he came into the relationship fully clueless that islam says he’s have to be muslim for them to get married. therefore, he should have come into it ready and willing for that subject to surface. That’s something that should be discussed early in the relationship instead of just thinking he found a muslim woman who doesn’t hold dear the values in her religion simply because she agreed to be in his company…even if they had gotten intimate. From his attitude it sounds like she would have made a serious mistake if she had chosen to marry him. He didn’t want her for who she was and in reality didn’t value or respect her beliefs. How could such a marriage succeed? She would have either been oppressed or willingly chosen a life of pretending and walking on eggshells. I’m proud of the sister for standing her ground. If she hadn’t “shut down” and tried to discuss it , it doesn’t really sound like he would have been open to listening. So silence would have been her best choice.
As a muslim woman, I’m sure she realized her mistake and regrets putting you in that situation. What appears to have been her shutting down may have been her reaction to realizing she could not get you to understand that her loyalty to God does and should always be above her loyalty to His creation. In the end He provides for her food, clothes, housing and controls how her day goes. And to Him she will have to return to explain all her actions. I get being angered by her bait and switch actions, but I find it hard to believe you weren’t aware that islam says we can only marry muslim men. If so, this is a chance you took and should take some responsibility for. I apologize for the frankness.
Also, through the hostility in your comment “Indonesia and the politcians and whatever religious sects are brainwashing these women. I hope all religion some day falls by the way side. Its all corrupt mindless garbage and when you die you return to the null and void, simply nothing.” ….I don’t see how the marriage could have succeeded due to the lack of respect for her beliefs. Also from that it appears she may have “shut down” from realizing she had no chance of getting you to understand or respect her point of view. It sounds like there would have been no point in trying to discuss it because of the strongly different views on religion vs love. Love isn’t guaranteed to last. Finally it appears you loved the person she pretended to be. The watered down person hiding her values and going along with main stream cultural beliefs. The real her is a muslim. I understand it’s hard and might have been infuriating…but be happy it ended. Reality is she is a muslim. Had you two have married, she would have struggled every day to try to make you give up the parts of your culture you love that she stands against: Ex: drinking, going to clubs, marijuana, pork, and lots and lots of small things. She would have insisted on raising your kids under her values and beliefs that you likely disagree with. such as teaching your daughters to wear hijab and wait til marriage and refusing to let them go to prom or celebrate christmas. And she would have had an equal situaltion coming from you. Marrying a nice “obedient” muslim girl is a fantasy. Neither of you get to have your cake and eat it too.
Basically what you might call “fighting for love” she would call selling her soul for a man. One might love and appreciate someone for that. but most humans (regardless of their religious views) would lose at least some respect for her for it if she had done it. She made the mistake of dating. The rest, she did the right thing. May Allah forgive her. I support the sister on her stance.
JAK for sharing your thoughts, it takes a lot to do so. it’s a sad reality, but it is true. we are social creatures, this means society and environment dictates who we are and our behavior, that’s why the Prophet of Islam SAAWAW main goal was to establish a society where the teaching of Allah is implemented and the supreme.
So, it looks like there is no way around it, if you live in a community where the divorce rate is 70%, like OC, then your probability of a divorce is 70%. To the authors comments about Muslim fathers and the way they raise their daughters, regardless weather we agree or disagree with their way, I don’t think it makes much difference, this pandemic seems to affect all, religiose, none religiose, good family, broken family, no family, liberal, conservatives, Muslims, non Muslims, different colors, different alphabets, winter is here and we are all at risk.
What do we do? here is some
1. Say bismillah and Keep on getting married, if the idea is to die married, then keep on doing it. Haram is never the answer, it’s a pathway to darkness, misery, meaningless and lonely life, and very bad eternal ending, way worse than any divorce out there.
2. Consider all options to protect yourself, JAK Ahmed for sharing some ways to do so.
3. Assist your situation properly, there is no one answer soles all, one solution does it all, one idea you live and die by, each situation is different, and life is too complex to fit in one solution, if you are newly graduate, or still going to school with no money, don’t have wealthy family, building your life together with your newly or about to be wife, I would treat this different than if you were not.
4. Stay away from any teachings or ideas that indicate men and women are at war between on another, this goes against the teaching of the Quran, Allah created humanity from a man and a women and repeatedly mentions that the default relationship between them is mercy and tranquility NOT war.
5. Move to a place with lower rate of divorce.
We live in a world where the induvial rights, wants, and needs, supersedes everything, this is a fundamental concept in my opinion can not coexist with idea of a family.
May Allah help us all….
I really appreciate your advice to reject suggestions that men and women are at war with one another.
I do believe there are socially engineered frustrations that are actively perpetuated, but enmity between men and women is not a primordial reality. Thank you for the reminder.
Hmm, this writing that can come off as condescending to many, especially when anonymously written (who exactly is the author?!) – it gets associated with your brand image and there are a lot of very risky statements here that aren’t backed up with any except your own experience or anecdotes. Do you have any stats to back up your claim that getting a civil marriage is more exploitative for women than not getting one? Because I’m pretty certain the stats are going to show that far more Muslim women are exploited through men who shy away from putting their marriage on the books. Many women I know were in secret marriages and avoiding civil courts is generally considered a big red flag that a man is trying to coerce you into sex that he has done some mental gymnastics to believe will be permissible in the eyes of allah.
As a person who is myself guilty of writing impulsively and getting passionate, I encourage for us both the cautiousness and wisdom that I see displayed in the writing of people of true knowledge. May allah guide us both.
Also want to apologize if I, in turn, came across condescending in this comment. I just want to also convey that I appreciate the work you’ve done and really admire your company (co-ed outdoor trips is a healthy, incredibly spiritual activity that I think our communities sadly fear or overlook so much! It is extremely refreshing to see that some Muslims are doing it right).
Salam,
I wrote the article. Just about everything on the blog is me unless otherwise specified.
Your perspective is appreciated. You did not come across as condescending and there is no need to apologize. If you haven’t already, you might check out the companion piece warning women about Muslim men:
https://dustandtribe.com/2022/08/01/muslim-men-a-warning-to-all-women/
Tawfiq was-salam
The Dowry that a man has to pay to his potential wife is financial “security” and this money will be hers and hers only. That concept is well taken. The problem however is that it is not uncommon that the woman (or woman’s family) asks a ridiculous high dowry from the husband. Now let me be clear: A woman can ask whatever she feels is right, but let’s not forget that a man also have a right…to decline. And this is happening in the muslim community a lot. A dowry that consists of $100K or a house (paid off) on the wife’s name is not uncommon. Unless the husband is some multi millionaire, this is not feasible for many prospective husbands. And thus the latter is turned down. The result of all this is that there are quite of lot of women (and men) who don’t or can’t get married. When these women turn 30ish, the truth is that it becomes much more difficult for them to get married. So my warning, as a man, to all muslim women is: Be reasonable what you ask. Having financial security is very important, especially in these days, but when your demands become beyond reasonable, you won’t find a suitable husband, or you may not find a husband at all. Not all women demand a huge dowry (especially when both husband and wife are contributing to the household income through work) and they will be chosen over you.
I agree completely with this. And I also think that unless we all take the concept of a dowry seriously, we won’t really be able to understand “market trends” as to what constitutes a reasonable request. Thank you so much for contributing to the conversation, brother!
Two occasions. First proposal came from a family who demanded a paid off house for their daughter, put in HER name. Then there was a proposal where the demand was $100K transferred into her account. Demands are sky high. Easy to fulfill for a Saudi prince, but not for an average person, like me. Frankly speaking, with some dramas I am seeing around me in my community, I am not even interested anymore. The example I see in my parents, which I would like to emulate, I just don’t see that in today’s girls. If anyone wants to marry me for my money, they should look elsewhere.
We actually admire women and families who make such demands. It’s their right to do so and it allows men a chance to accept or decline up front. Both offers that you mention could potentially be a bargain when compared to outcomes that we have seen in civil divorce court.
When women and their families prioritize this level of financial security for themselves, they should, as mentioned in the article, be open to any arrangement that a man deems necessary to protect whatever of his assets remain after meeting their demands. This is only just. Such arrangements may include avoiding a civil marriage, placing personal assets into an inaccessible trust, or a civil marriage with an iron-clad prenuptial agreement.
Women should be no more ashamed to prioritize their financial security than men who choose to prioritize youth or beauty or virginity or whatever else might be Islamically permissible and personally desirable.
In any case, we respect your feelings in the matter and pray that Allah blesses you with a wonderful spouse.
Ittaqillah, Ukhti. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between these environments. Education is NECESSARY. a camping trip is a SOCIAL GATHERING which is UNNECESSARY and OPTIONAL, And THAT is why it IS HARAM. Don’t call the person FOLLOWING THE DEEN and the SUNNAH an IDIOT when YOU are the one FULL OF GHAFLA YOURSELF.
Dust and Tribe runs several coed outings and we see this firsthand all the time. Fathers will not let their college-aged daughters participate in wilderness outings where Muslim men are present. These same fathers have no problem sending their daughters into a secular coed collegiate environment.
Idiots.
“SOCIALIZING’ between MEN and WOMEN is and ALWAYS HAS BEEN HARAM, and it BY THE COMMAND OF ALLAH that it is so. Saying YOU KNOW BETTER THAN HIM, IS SHIRK.
Your perspective is appreciated, though we don’t believe it to be particularly well thought-out.
Education is highly encouraged in our tradition. We probably both agree on that. You seem to believe that an education proffered through formal, secular academia is preferable to the education that arrives through intentional engagement with the wilderness. You also seem to imagine that such an education is unlikely to involve a compromising social dimension for the observant Muslim, at least not to the degree that you suppose happens outside.
We think you should ask yourself about the cave wherein our prophet first received revelation, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him. We think you would do well to consider the desert that tested Abraham, Ishmael, his mother Hagar, Moses, and the tribes of Israel. We think you may have missed the education received by the prophet Jonas while in the belly of the whale, may Allah’s peace descend upon him and all of the prophets. We think it’s time you reflect on God’s swearing upon the moon, the sun, the fig, and the olive, among other created things, as a possible indication that there is tremendous benefit in an experiential consideration of these phenomena.
Your comment suggests that you, like these horribly misguided fathers, prioritize the facts and figures taught at our secular universities over the humility, awe, respect, resourcefulness, tenacity, courage, and resilience that the wilderness offers. You diminish all of this as a “social gathering” both “unnecessary and optional.” This suggests to us that your experience in the outdoors has been severely limited by a poorly considered intention.
We certainly hope that you allow yourself to reconsider your intention when outside such that you might appreciate the lessons that God teaches us through the magnificence of His creation.
Tawfiq was-salam